Egypt, China and India; What Happened? What can be happening?
Symposium during 39th Cairo International Book Fair on Friday, 2 February 2007
Speakers:
Dr. Hassan Abu Taleb, Deputy Director of Al Ahram Centre for Strategic Studies
Dr. Sayed Eleiwa, Professor at Helwan University
Mr. Fathi Abdel Fattah, Deputy Chief Editor of Al Gomhuria newspaper
Dr. Walid Abdel Nasser, Egyptian diplomat and senior writer and analyst
Moderated by: Dr. Mustafa El Feki, Chairman of Foreign Relations' Committee at the People's Assembly
Dr. Mostafa Al Fiqi:
At the outset, I would like to extend my thanks to the Chairman and Vice Chairman of the 39th Cairo International Book Fair 2007 for organizing this symposium and the tremendous efforts they exerts during this year's Book Fair.
I would like also to welcome the Ambassador of India in Cairo, who is present in our function today.
At the same time, I want to thank and greet the organizers of this symposium for selecting such an important theme: "Topic: Winds of the East… Egypt, China and India; What Happened? What can be happening?"
The topic focuses on Egypt's relations with Asian countries, which have declined to a great extent in the last period. For instance, no Egyptian President has visited India since 1983. However, the flaming conditions and problems in the Middle East could be the reason behind this.
I served in India for four years (1979-1983) and I followed up the developments in this region, which has become influential in our today's world. In this context, I would like to highlight a very important fact, which is modernization is not westernization. I will give you an example, when India was preparing to host the first ASEAN summit, the Indian workers managed to build 24 bridges in a month's time.
The Asian approach for developing transportation depends on small vehicles, three wheelers, like rickshaws or the motorized rickshaw, namely, "tuk tuk", and motorcycles, as it takes into consideration the small lanes and streets spreading in the country. On the other hand, the western approach focuses on establishing a perfect network transportation of undergrounds so that the public can mainly count on the tube and do without their cars. The westerns also develop double-decker buses, which are comfortable and can take large number of people. Our poor Egypt, instead of adopting the Asian approach, rushed to imitate the American and western approaches, although we resemble the Indians in our infrastructure. In fact, there are great similarities between the villages in Egypt and India. Also, the Indians, like the Egyptians, opt for peace, stability and tranquility.
As for China, I describe it as "an emerging giant with closed eyes". China's growth rate will hit all records within the coming two or three decades. However, the Chinese people always stress that they do not want their country to be the leader of the world. When you tell a Chinese official that your country will be a superpower, he simultaneously says, "This is an imperial way of thinking and we do not accept it."
The Chinese commodities are invading every place in the globe, including the US, where you can find Chinese goods offered at competitive prices. China is a major economic power that needs a strong will to impose itself on the world arena.
India is the symbol of great cultural heritage in East Asia. In this context, I would like to give some facts about this country. India achieved self-sufficiency in terms of food grains. New Delhi managed to become a nuclear state and joined the space club. We have enjoyed close traditional relations with India. For instance, there was a joint plan between Egypt and India during the 1960s to produce an aircraft and it was agreed that we would manufacture the engine and they would produce the body. India today is manufacturing vehicles (like OPEL 35), while we are still importing and assembling vehicles.
The problem is that we have heavily counted on Europe in our lifestyle, and started importing everything from them, like fashion and vehicles. We have simply turned into a major consumer. We overlooked the initial industrial steps we have taken in the past. Some Egyptian families still have in their houses the gas heater manufactured by the military factories in the 1960s, when we were trying to lay the foundations of a real industry. If we had pursued our industrial march, we would have been like India today.
I believe that if India, China and Japan joined hands together, they would represent a massive influential power in the world. Japan has genius brains, human development and technologies. China has high growth rates and huge number of population. India is of considerable economic, military and cultural weight. In case of a tripartite alliance among these countries, the balance of power will shift from Europe to East Asia.
Dr. Hassan Abu Taleb, Deputy Director of Al Ahram Centre for Strategic Studies:
I would like to thank the organizers of this symposium for allowing me to take part in the discussion of this important theme. After the introduction given by Dr. Mostafa Al Fiqi, I believe that some points pertaining to this topic started crystallizing in my mind.
When I was invited to participate in this symposium, the first point stroke to my mind was how Egypt can benefit from "the winds of the East" in view of the economic, developmental, intellectual and civilizational experiences of this region. In fact, this region is of a great significance not only for Egypt but for the entire world. We are following up the emerging roles of countries like India, China, Russia and Japan. Each country of them has a unique experience and they will definitely affect the current status of globalization and international relations.
"Egypt and the Winds of the East", I believe that this topic deals with an important question, namely, "What does Egypt want from this region and how can it interact with its countries?"
Historically, Egypt enjoys strong political relations with China, India, Japan and Russia. Egypt's interaction with these countries was crowned with the establishment of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM).
Today, we should know how to benefit from the experiences of the countries of this region. There are different approaches of industry in the East and Egypt should know how to make use of them.
It is believed that China would be the second major economic power in the world within the coming 20 to 25 years. Accordingly, it will play a key political role in the international arena. The Chinese do not want to underscore this point at the present time. There are Chinese researchers, who are working to get the Chinese leadership ready to play this leading political role in the future. However, the Chinese officials do not like to speak about this matter and often emphasize that they are working to achieve developmental objects all over China. Development scheme for west China has started four years ago and it is doing very well. This means that China will be stronger in the years to come.
As for Egypt's relations with these countries, I believe that a joint will from the two sides should be available to promote our relations with China, India and Japan. India, unlike China, always says that it is an emerging power and it practices the tasks of major powers in the world economy, peace and nuclear non-proliferation. The Indian experience of democracy and openness is totally different from that of China.
China always denies that it is in the process to be a major power. The question is, "What do we want from these countries? Do we want to deepen our political relations or benefit from their successful economic experience?" I believe that we sometimes might have ambitions and good ideas, but we fail to achieve them!!!
The idea of free zones, which emerged in China in 1976-77, proved to be successful. For instance, the Chinese city of Tianjin (inhabited by 7 million people) has become a key scientific and technological hub. It is amazing to know that all inhabitants of this city have MA degree and that the total volume of this city's international trade is one and a half more than Egypt's total trade.
The question is, "Why do others succeed and we do not? We should identify the factors of success, which are: planning, management, continuous work and clear vision. We should first know the reasons behind the success of these experiences. The second point is to know how to benefit from them.
Politically, we agree with these countries (India, China, Russia and to some extent Japan) on the importance of having a multi-polar world. We are all against the American hegemony. I believe that we have to focus on this topic in the international relations in order to ease the international pressures practiced on us and gain more economic and commercial privileges given our unique geographical location. Realizing this new world order (multi-polar world), Egypt can promote its regional political roles.
Egypt sometimes seems to be hesitant to support international (Indian/ Chinese/ Russian) endeavours against American hegemony, but it should not. We should realize that hegemony negatively affects our interests. We should back political and economic interactions with these countries in order to benefit from their experiences.
Dr. Mustafa El Feki:
I would like one of the speakers to pinpoint the changes in the stances of both China and India towards the Palestinian cause and their ties with Israel.
In 2003, I met the Indian National Security Advisor Mr. Mishra and the Egyptian Ambassador to India Mr. Kheir El Din Abdel Latif was also there. During the meeting, Mr. Mishra told me that his country has strong political and military ties with Israel. However, he stressed that there is no nuclear cooperation between his country and Israel, because both of them are nuclear states. He clearly indicated that India supports the UN resolutions on Palestine.
I would like to mention that whenever the Palestinian Ambassador to India wanted to meet Indira Gandhi in 1979-80, she gave instructions to allow him, even if it was in the midnight. Unfortunately, we raised high the religious aspects in our relations with Pakistan, and so our relations with India declined. Accordingly, India sought its interests with other countries. The Egyptian visits to India at the Presidential and non-Presidential levels are limited.
We confine our interaction with the outside world to the UN, the United States and EU. So, India and China decided to look for other partners. Why do we ask India about its relations with Israel, while we have relations with Israel?
Dr. Sayed Eleiwa, Professor at Helwan University:
I would like to thank the organizers of this symposium and H.E. the Ambassador of India in Cairo. I feel happy to participate in this symposium with these prominent intellectuals. When we talk about Egypt's relations with India and China, we should think of our interaction with them in light of globalization and the international intellectual, political and economic developments. The new world imposes new challenges and threats. Several groups have taken the initiative to word off the threats of globalization, which negatively affect the national identity. Yet, globalization implies considerable opportunities that make it worthy to take the risk. These opportunities are markets, technologies and information. We can learn from the Indian and Chinese experiences, given the commonalities between us in terms of history, culture and civilization. The three countries, Egypt, India and China, are riverine communities. In other words, the three civilizations emerged on the banks of great rivers.
Chins is in the way to be a superpower, while India is in the process to turn into a major power. On the other hand, Egypt can also turn into a considerable power in between. Given Egypt's cultural, scientific and diplomatic capabilities, I believe that we can deal with the challenges of globalization and benefit from its opportunities. We can steer the clash of civilizations to counterbalance the western civilization. We, as Egyptian intellectuals, always speak about the importance of heading east to benefit from the experiences of India and China and be able to combine between modernity and authenticity.
Dr. Anwar Abdel Malik said that the balance of power in the world will shift to Asia and the next century will be Asian. We have to understand that the new world order is being shaped and these two countries, India and China, are playing key roles. It is worth mentioning that Egypt enjoys tangible civilizational and cultural ties with these countries.
India, with its population exceeding one billion, is the largest democracy in the world and it represents a unique model of democratic development, rotation of power and free elections. India has remained united in spite of the linguistic, cultural and ethnic diversity of its population. India embodies a unique model of democracy.
I have been to India several years ago and I found most of the people and government officials using one type of locally-manufactured vehicle in a bid to encourage national industry. Also, small-scale industries generate job opportunities for millions of Indian youth. In spite of the low standard of living, India managed to be a member of the nuclear club and overcome all tough economic conditions. Moreover, India annually exports software worth of billions of dollars. The Indian technological expertise invades the European markets.
As for China, there are some important facts about this country. First, China has the largest foreign reserve in the world, which is estimated at US$ 988 billion. However, there is a wide gap between the poor and the rich. I have been to China three years ago. China today is the fourth largest economic power in the world after the US, EU and Japan. Per capita income in China has been doubled in a short period of time. The economic growth rate in China exceeds 10% per annum. The Chinese government is trying to curb cadence of industrial development in the country to prevent any radical change in the structure of the society.
I believe that we should learn from these two countries (India and China), given the historical and social commonalities between us. India and China provide unique models of development.
When I was at the Gate of Heavenly Peace in Tiananmen Square in China, I found thousands of people riding their bicycles and it was meant to rationalize oil consumption.
To sum up, we have to realize that the obstacles and restrictions of development in these countries were almost similar to those facing Egypt today. These restrictions are: scarcity of natural resources and the poor human development and skilful manpower.
Israel has taken long strides in its economic, industrial and military relations with both India and China. I call on the Egyptian youth to head east and learn the languages of these countries to encourage our interaction with them. Poor human development is a real problem hindering the progress of nations. The military force (number of tanks and aircrafts) is no longer the criteria to measure the country's strength. Today, knowledge, computer and self-education are basic factors for sharpening the skills of youth in any country.
Dr. Mustafa El Feki:
I believe that this talk is a call for reopening Silk Road and I believe that Dr. Anwar Abdel Malik is highly interested in this topic.
Anyway, I would like to record that China's positions towards the issues of Iraq, Palestine and others have witnessed radical changes, as China did not use the veto power in some situations and sided with the US. In fact, we did not except China to do so in these situations.
The former US President Clinton said once, "There is always an Indian involved in any business done between any two Americans". India's revenues of IT exports during late 1990s registered US$ 6 billion per annum. At the same period, Egypt was also one of the countries, which were qualified to play a similar role in the Middle East in this domain. Democracy and poverty represent a paradox in India. About 600 to 700 million Indian voters cast their ballots in three months. Sometimes, the person holding the post of the PM of India is defeated in his constituency.
Mr. Fathi Abdel Fattah, Deputy Chief Editor of Al Gomhuria newspaper
I will talk about the geographical and historical links between Egypt, China and India. We usually ignore the geographical aspects, which are very important. Mr. Gamal Hemdan is interested in geography and its roles. Riverine communities are different from communities living in the desert, as the climate and way of living affect human's nature. The riverine communities are characterized with unity. For instance, King Mena united the people of Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt, who were living along the banks of the River Nile. Both China and India (till the separation of Pakistan) have managed to maintain their unity for a long period of time.
The life of tribal communities is different from that of riverine communities, as the first travel from one place to another in quest of water, while the latter is settled around the banks of the river. We felt that kind of unity in Egypt well before the establishment of the High Dam. When the River Nile used to flood in the past, people living in north and south used to warn each other to get ready.
When I have been to both China and India, I found that the Indian farmer is almost similar to the Egyptian farmer in terms of lifestyle and living conditions, given the fact that both of them belong to riverine communities. The people living in such communities are used to work hard and this feature had a clear impact on their productivity.
In the tribal communities, tribes fighting over water wells. They do not belong to one place, as they regularly travel from one place to another. The riverine communities have concepts, like nationality, identity and social solidarity, which greatly affected their approaches of productivity.
Modern history tells us stories about liberation movements, which started almost in the same period in the three countries. There were close links between the Indian Congress party, led by Gandhi and Nehru, and the Egyptian Al Wafd Party. Whenever Nehru visited Egypt, he used to visit Al Nahas Pasha at his residence in Garden City. Links between Egypt and the two countries (India and China) were reinforced during Bandung Conference, which came up with Bandung principles of development and liberation. India and China managed to apply these principles, but we failed.
I have been to China three times in 1976, 1996 and 2001. Every time, I witnessed radical changes in China to the extent that I could not recognize the places, which I visited in the previous time. I also visited India twice. In the past, we used to support India, because Pakistan was a friend of the United States.
India today is a key partner in the international market of high-tech and China is invading the whole world with its commodities. What about Egypt? We have turned into a market for the agents of foreign manufacturers and so we have become a consuming society. We should have a strong educational system, which can offer qualified cadres to realize a comprehensive development.
Dr. Mustafa El Feki:
We should not forget that there are also large deserts in the three countries (Egypt, China and India). For instance, Rajasthan is a desert state in India, but still it produces food grains. The main factor, which has played a decisive role in shaping the march of our countries, is the human element and its skills. The Asian character is used to endure pains. There is a Chinese proverb saying "Wait on the other bank of the River to receive the corpses of your enemies".
Dr. Walid Abdel Nasser, Egyptian diplomat and senior writer and analyst (He was DCM in the Egyptian Mission in Washington):
I would like to thank Dr. Mustafa El Feki and the organizers of this symposium for inviting me to participate.
Actually, my colleagues left nothing for me to say about the topic of the symposium. However, I will briefly highlight Israel's relations with both India and China.
Before I start, I would like also to welcome H.E. Ambassador of India in Cairo, whom I know since we were in Geneva in 1980s.
Interests:
Interests play a key role in shaping relations between any two countries. This was very clear in Israel's relations with China and India. At a certain point of history, the two sides felt that they are in need of enhancing cooperation in different fields. However, this does not mean that India and China gave up their support to the Arab and Palestinian rights at the political level. We can not blame India and China for developing their relations with Israel, because each government works for the interests of its people. We should also see and assess what the Arabs offered to the two countries over the past period.
Israel adopted a long term strategy to develop its relations with China and India. During the early diplomatic relations between Israel and the two countries, Israeli institutions have built strong ties with promising youth cadres in India and China. With the developments of these ties over a long period of time, these cadres, who assumed senior posts in the governments of the two countries, realized the importance of having strong relations with Israel.
At the same time, I would like to underline the strong ties between Al Wafd party in Egypt and the Indian Congress Party, and the leaders of the two countries like Nehru, Indira and Nasser. I would like also to record that Egypt was the first Arab state to recognize the People's Republic of China in 1956 and this step marked a strong shift in relations between the two countries.
The two countries have achieved high economic growth rates (China: about 12.5% and India:10%). I see that it is important to benefit from the experiences of the two countries.
Regional groupings
China is a member of Shanghai Group, which includes Central Asian and Caucasian states. On the other hand, India is a key member of SAARC. Although SAARC summits are sometimes suspended whenever a political difference is erupted between India and Pakistan, the Association regularly pursues its activities. So, I believe that Egypt can make use of its relations with India and China to have access to these regional groupings.
India and China have gone a long way in the field of high-tech. India has achieved remarkable development in the IT field since 1990s and it has become the Silicon Valley of Asia. There are hundreds of Indian software engineers in California in the US. So, it is important to benefit from the Indian experience.
Both India and China possess nuclear technology to meet the increasing requirements of energy and electricity. During my service in Geneva, I learnt that high-tech is not always the ideal solution for one's problems, as there is another type of technology called appropriate technology. In the same way, we can say that small and medium enterprises are sometimes better than mega corporations.
I personally advocate the call for heading east and achieving rapprochement with India, China, Japan and East countries. However, this tendency should not be at the cost of our relations with other countries and regions, like Canada, EU and Russia.
The role of civil society
The world today does not depend only on the role of governments, as businessmen, civil associations, developmental organization, youth and woman federations and groupings are playing significant roles. I see that we should benefit from the experiences of India, China and Japan in this domain.
When we had cooperation with India during the 1980s, there were tangible results.
There are joint commissions between Egypt and these countries, which are mainly established to enhance bilateral relations. So, I believe that the consultations held between the members of these commissions should be translated into beneficial projects for Egypt.
Dr. Mustafa El Feki:
During one of President Mubarak's visits to China, there was a military parade and it took a long time. Actually, I, as a civilian, got bored and asked the people there, "Is it the whole army of China?" They answered, "No, those are the commanders of the battalions and units only."
China has a huge human population, but they, unlike us, do not repeatedly call for birth control. They offer training to the youth and attract more investments to generate job opportunities.
Once again, I would like to stress that the whole world is not the US and Europe, as there are other nations, which welcome cooperation with us. However, we still woo the US and Europe.
As requested by one of the attendees, I now request the Ambassador of India in Cairo to say few words.
H.E. Ambassador of India in Cairo Mr. A. Gopinathan:
Thanks Dr. El Feki and honourable speakers. I did not prepare any speech to say on this occasion, but I will take the thread from what the speakers said during the function.
Both Egypt and India enjoy historical relations and this is clearly reflected in the friendship ties between Nasser and Nehru. These friendly relations have continued throughout the history of the two countries. I have seen photos of leaders of the two countries together: President Saddat and Rajiv Gandhi and many others. These relations continued between President Mubarak and Rajiv Gandhi. Three former Indian Prime Ministers visited Egypt: Rajiv Gandhi (1985), Narasimha Rao (1995) and I.K. Gujral (1997).
There is a great interaction between India and Egypt in the present time. In this context, I would like to say that four Egyptian ministerial delegations have recently visited India. The four Ministers are: Foreign Minister Mr. Ahmed Abul Gheit, Minister of IT and Telecommunication Dr. Tarek Kamel, Minister of Administrative Development Mr. Ahmed Dawarish and Minister of Social Solidarity Mr. Ali Moselhi. At the backdrop of the visit of Egyptian Minister of IT and Telecommunication, the Indian company Satyam Computers, an Indian leading IT company, reached an agreement with the Egyptian side on the establishment of a centre in Egypt, where about 300 Egyptian engineers will be trained.
I believe that our relations are getting stronger. The two countries can further enhance bilateral cooperation in the fields of small and medium-scale industries, IT and exchange of experience. The Indian institutions have already started their investments in Egypt. Some of them are known to the public and others are not.
I see that relations between our two countries will get stronger in the coming period.
Thank you.
Dr. Mustafa El Feki:
I totally agree with the Indian Ambassador on what he said. In this context, I recall the lines of poetry written by the great Egyptian poet Mr. Ahmed Shawqi, when Mahatma Gandhi passed by Alexandria on his way to the Roundtable Conference in London. In his poem, Mr. Shawqi said, "Greetings from the land of River Nile and a wreath of flower from me to the great leader Gandhi".
I would like to thank Ambassador of India for his participation.
In his comments on some of the questions asked by the attendees of the symposium, Dr. El Feki said the following:
In the past, when I wrote an article about a meeting between Indira Gandhi and the Jewish community in Bombay (Mumbai today), the then Ambassador of India to Egypt went to the Egyptian Foreign Ministry and protested saying, "I wonder how somebody is saying that India has relations with Israel!!"
India has a unique experience of secularism. For instance, there have been three Muslim Presidents of India, Dr. Zakir Hussain, Dr Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed and the current President, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam. There are other Muslims occupying senior posts in India.
India is rich with the Islamic Mogul heritage. For example, there is Taj Mahal, which is built by one of the Mogul emperors.
I lived in India for four years and I found that Muslims play a key role in the political life in India. On the other hand, Muslims are, to some extent, subjected to suppression in China.
If anybody visits India, he will find the Indians very close to us in terms of traditions and the way of thinking.
India has a high-level educational system. I felt that during my stay in India, where my two daughters, Salma and Sara, studied at Indian schools. They speak fluent English, thanks to their study in India.
About the pollution of the River Nile and seas in Egypt, Dr. El Feki said, "I believe that India has experience in this domain, as they suffer from pollution of sacred rivers. We can benefit from their experience."
Final comments by the speakers:
Dr. Fathi Abdel Fattah: I believe that education and healthcare are the key pillars for realizing human development.
Dr. Walid Abdel Nasser: I do not think that I have more to say about this, but we should learn from the experiences of these two countries. Once again, I would like to thank the organizers of this symposium for inviting me to participate. I would like also to thank the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of Cairo International Book Fair.
Dr. Sayd Eliwa: It is important to maximize the role of civil society institutions and promote public information. We should not confine ourselves to the religious values, as there are other human values need to be raised high in the society.
Dr. Hassan Abu Taleb: China and India adopt different political systems. China stands for centralized democracy, while India adopts an open democracy, but with it is controlled openness. The lesson, which we should draw, is to have a strong will to introduce changes and think of the future with open minds. We should first ask ourselves about what do we exactly want. The two countries pursued their march, but we lost our way in the middle of the road.
Dr. Mustafa El Feki: The world is not the US and Europe, as there are other nations that welcome cooperation with us.
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